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Thread: Fear the Rebuttal - Shadowrun

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    Dread News Editor RPGamer Staff Fowl Sorcerous's Avatar
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    Post Fear the Rebuttal - Shadowrun

    The Saving Throw editor delves into half of the reasons why he doesn't like Shadowrun. Also witness a one-sided argument with the biggest gaming podcast in the biz.

    why not Zoidberg?

  2. #2
    This is why I hate settings. I like to focus on the rules themselves. Its the game that's fun, and a good game will be fun no matter how pedestrian or plain the setting is. I always craft my own settings and I never buy someone else's premade campaign settings.

    But I'm in the minority. I've yet to meet anyone who preferred the same level of freedom. Most people are just looking to play a game in a setting most akin to their favourite movie or book or whatever.

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    A Serious Man Drav's Avatar
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    Out of interest Fowl, how to do feel about Arcanum? Personally I've always liked the idea that all these Tolkien-esk fantasy settings will eventually have some kind of industrial revolution that sets them on the path to a dystopic cyberpunk future much like our (theoretical) own, although if I recall that's not exactly how Shadowrun works.

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    Dread News Editor RPGamer Staff Fowl Sorcerous's Avatar
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    Arcanum is interesting. I keep meaning to play more of, though eberron tickle s my industrial fantasy fancy better. Shadowrun actually works backwards. Post-industrial, information era dystopia ensues, then Mayan apocalypse causes return of magic and the population to spontaneously mutate into elves n ****.

  5. #5
    Hmm. Well, I can't really comment on the Pnp games since my only real connection to shadowrun has been the SNES/Genesis games I played back in the days and the two games I donated for kickstarter. That being said, just from my experience with the games, I really did enjoy them and I'm really looking forward to playing the kickstarter games. Heck, I would play the Pnp if I could ever find a group to play it with to be honest.

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    I personally like Shadowrun, but I think I've been lucky in having some great GMs for it. I like the mechanics behind it quite a bit, and have considered trying to tweak it to be a system for a high fantasy game before.

    TG, have you checked out Gurps or Hero? Those are both some fantastic systems with no specific setting for them unless you buy the setting related books.

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    Dread News Editor RPGamer Staff Fowl Sorcerous's Avatar
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    the thing about fun is that it's ********. you can have fun watching paint dry with the right people and huff enough fumes, but that doesn't make it well conceived, well executed or worthwhile. It certainly doesn't justify the defence this podcast was mounting for shadowrun.

    so have your fun, i'm going to keep writing semi-thoughtful commentary (my fun).

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    I apologize if I somehow hit a nerve there, wasn't my intent at all. Wasn't trying to defend the podcast, just giving my two cents on my experiences with it(in regards to Shadowrun).
    Last edited by freykin; 04-20-2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Member Lassic's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but that was not a rebuttal: that was a rant.

    Your argument basicly boils down to: "I don't like this setting and those that do have no taste."

    Nobody is forcing you to play Shadowrun (AFAIK)

  10. #10
    A Serious Man Drav's Avatar
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    I think the problem is that the editorial isn't actually about Shadowrun, whether it was intended to be or not; It's about how appropriate it is to use magic and Tolkien/DnD fantasy races in a cyberpunk setting. I mean, there are no critiques of Shadowrun as a ruleset, or really anything at all except that one thing, and it's not about whether Shadowrun implemented its fantasy/cyberpunk mashup well or not, but rather that fantasy/cyberpunk mashups are bad period and that makes anything that uses them, by extension, bad. And really, it's only that last response that deals with this directly; the first two pre-suppose that these things are bad and merely attack apologist arguments for using them anyway.

    So yeah, you can probably see why some people are walking away from this without anything much to say other than "well, I still like it".

  11. #11
    TG, have you checked out Gurps or Hero? Those are both some fantastic systems with no specific setting for them unless you buy the setting related books.
    Yeah, I tried Hero. Not bad, but I ended up creating my own system. You're right though. I don't like it when game systems tie a campaign setting explicitly to the rules (I like Masquerade/Reckoning, but I hate the whole goth feel).
    Last edited by TG Barighm; 04-21-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lassic View Post
    I'm sorry but that was not a rebuttal: that was a rant.

    Your argument basicly boils down to: "I don't like this setting and those that do have no taste."

    Nobody is forcing you to play Shadowrun (AFAIK)
    Completely agree. The complaint essentially seems to be "I can accept that there's magic, elves, dragons, trolls, vampires and all that. But only in a medieval setting. In a futuristic world, it doesn't make any sense!"

    That said, I don't necessarily agree with the main points made in defense of Shadowrun in the podcast. But Shadowrun should't require defense anymore than any other world that contains magic and mythological creatures. Magic is totally implausible because it basically defies many of the natural laws as we know them (i.e., seemingly creating energy). You either suspend your disbelief and accept that magic exists, or you don't.
    Last edited by daveyd; 04-21-2013 at 08:33 PM.

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    is not declawed RPGamer Staff Ocelot's Avatar
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    I don't have problems with the Shadowrun setting, but I find the PnP game's mechanics to be painfully slow. Guess that makes me the anti-Fowl.

    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance

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    Ocelot, which version of Shadowrun did you play? I found that the earlier ones were kind of clunky, but 4th edition moves real quick after the first combat or two once everyone knows how dice pools work. I do think the hacking is still ridiculously complex; when I've run it I've pretty much replaced it with just a hacking roll because it slows things down too much.

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    is not declawed RPGamer Staff Ocelot's Avatar
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    Oh geez, I have no idea. Whatever version my GM in the year 2000 had.

    Twitter: BeckyCFreelance

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    Ah, probably 2nd or 3rd then, as 4th came out in 2004-2005. It's a world of difference, most dice rolls are now just the relevant stat+skill and modifiers, and looking for how many successes you got. Your degree of success is now based on how many successes you have over your opponent, instead of having threshholds to reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TG Barighm View Post
    I've yet to meet anyone who preferred the same level of freedom.
    Hello. My name is Daniel. Pleased to meet you! ^_^

    I am in the same boat as you. Settings to me limit my freedom, instead of giving me material to work with. I'd rather create the setting myself, so when Elminster gets killed by a rampant running rabbit, it's all good, because he won't return in anything else.

    As to the point of Shadowrun as a setting.

    I *LOVED* the look and feel of the SNES Shadowrun game. LOVED it. Like... maddeningly!!

    Then I found out, years later, not too long ago, that it was actually part of a setting... And I found out it had elves and dragons and all that stuff and I was immediately put off. I can completely understand the writer's view that the art shows an uninteresting, uninspiring setting.

    Now, Shadowrun SNES style... That would be a setting I would love to play in.

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    Didn't the SNES Shadowrun have elves and dragons and vampires and orcs and dwarves? I distinctly remember fighting a dragon with an orc mercenary on my side, while having magical abilities due to a fox spirit.

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